Episode 106. Masturbation in Marriage with Dr. Ari Tuckman
Podcast Summary and Shownotes
Masturbation is often a taboo subject in marriage. People keep it hidden out of shame and fear of hurting their partner's feelings. And in many marriages, one partner may try to forbid their partner from masturbating. Feeling that it's cheating or that it robs the relationship of its intimacy and sexual energy. These efforts to ban masturbation from the marriage often result in one partner hiding part of themselves. And, as we all know, trying to hide from your partner never turns out well.
Today I'm talking with Dr. Ari Tuckman on this important topic. Ari has a unique combination of skills. He is a psychologist, an expert on ADHD, and a Certified Sex Therapist. I think you'll enjoy this interesting show about sexuality and marriage.
Information on Ari:
Information on me:
Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's therapist in San Francisco. I wanna welcome you to sex love and couple's therapy. We all want to feel loved. That's a universal desire, but sometimes instead of feeling loving our relationships, feel confusing, frustrating, and a little crazy making The purpose of this podcast is to help you clear up some of that confusion so that you and your partner can find ways to make your relationship feel closer or connect to do more loving. So stay tuned. We've got a lot of great stuff to talk about, and now let's go talk about my three favorite topics, sex love, and couples therapy.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Well welcome everybody to sex love and couples therapy. And I couldn't be happier than to tell you about our guest today. Dr. Ari Tuckman, Ari has a unique combination of both an interest in ADHD and is a certified sex therapist. He's an international presenter author of four books on ADHD, including his most recent one D after dark better sex life, better relationship. He has appeared on CNN and national public radio and had been quoted in the New York times, Boston globe, Washington post and men's health. And today amazingly Dr. Tuckman is here with us on sex love and couples therapy. Ari, welcome. Thanks so much for coming.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's my pleasure. I'm always happy to talk about this stuff. So I'll take, I'll take most offers <laugh>.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So I was wondering just to get started, um, you know, becoming a certified sex therapist is no easy feat that requires a lot of effort, a lot of study, a lot of training, a lot of work and, and time and money. And I'm wondering, and, but you also have this very successful kind of, and you're very well known, uh, around ADHD. And I'm wondering kind of where those two things came from and how they kind of come together.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, it, it is a good question. So, I mean, I've been doing stuff with ADHD, especially ADHD and adults, which is definitely used to be a seriously underserved population. And now is just kind of mostly still an underserved it's less of an underserved, so we're not killing it yet, but, um, you know, so like a lot of what I did for a lot of years was really sort of focusing on adults of ADHD being more effective in day to day life. So just managing, you know, all the responsibilities of adulthood or in the case of teens and kids, right? So like, how do you keep track of things? How do you set priorities? How do you get stuff done and stay organized? And, you know, just all that stuff, it's all important, it's all good stuff, but kind of more and more over, you know, those 20 years, I kind of got to a point where I was like, you know what?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
This is op like, duh, right? This is not just about the individuals. We're not, you know, we don't live on an island by ourselves. We live with other people and we're social creatures. We, we depend on other people. We want other people in our lives and we want that to go well. So I became more and more interested in this sort of relationship and the couples therapy piece, as well as, you know, family relationships between, you know, kids, teens, and parents, but obviously a big part of relationships is sexuality. I mean, it's not the whole thing hopefully, but like that's an important part. And I kind of felt that by not addressing that piece in a very explicit and direct kind of a way, it, I don't know, like that I was sort of missing a pretty good lever, so to speak, to pull, to help my individual and couple's therapy clients kind of do better. Right. Be happy or enjoy each other more so that when the inevitable, frustrating annoyances of like, I don't know, you left the milk out and now it's bad, right? Like when that stuff comes up, they have a bit of, you know, gas in the tank, a bit of resilience, resilience to bounce over the setback and keep going, feeling good about each other.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah. No, I think one of the things that I've, I've seen, um, is that while that sexual part of the relationship is so critical, it's the last thing that couples are often willing or interested in talking about even, even in couple's therapy. Yeah. You know, I, I find that I'm always the one who has to bring that up. Mm-hmm <affirmative> they almost never bring up sex.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Unless it's kind of the core issue that's driving them to, to therapy, but they don't wanna bring that up. And most interestingly is that to me, is that many couples therapists shy away from bringing up sex, which I think is just crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah. I know that I was gonna, that was actually gonna be the response I had is like, you know, in defense of the couples, a lot of couples therapists don't bring it up either. Oh. Which is, is sort of crazy. It's like, I don't know. It's like being a child therapist and not bringing up school. Right. You know, or something like, I don't know. Like, um, so yeah, I mean, the problem is a lot of couples therapists, as insane as this is to say, have like minimal training in sexuality beyond this sort of general obvious. Right. But it, but yeah. I mean, I think it is important and it can feel really vulnerable and intimate and hard to discuss. And yet, like anything, if you can't be specific and direct about it, if you can't ask for what you want, if you can't hear what your partner wants without freaking out about it, um, um, you know, probably doesn't go as well. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I think that's so true. And I think, you know, as with all things that same vulnerability and discomfort is, is extended to the, to the therapist and he, or she is uncomfortable kind of bringing these things up and talking about them and if they're uncomfortable, how can they expect their, their clients to the patients to kind of have this comfortable discussion about this and to normalize this behavior?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah. It's so true.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Even
Speaker 1 (06:40):
That,
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Even beyond that, it kind of, it potentially sends the message that, you know, like if you're the, the couple there and your therapist seems a bit weird and awkward about sexuality, it kind of reinforces the idea of wow. Sex really is hard to talk about. Look, even this seems a bit squeamish about it, you know,
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So true. Yeah. No, I completely agree with you. But, and then, so just talking about sex is hard, but then talking about masturbation mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (07:12):
<affirmative>
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Way, it just takes it up another two searches. It does. So people will be willing to talk about sex if they have to, but God, they don't want to talk about masturbation. Yeah. And I have to tell you sex the therapists, not sex therapists, but regular therapists really don't want to talk about that. Yeah. It just is. It's, there's too much going on there in my experience with couples, um, that question of masturbation really becomes is really there, but it's not something that people are talking about because often one partner or the other is, is masturbating and the other partner is unhappy about it or has questions about it or has feelings about it, but they're unable to talk about it. And so everybody's a little uncomfortable and, and, uh, at the core part of that, and I think we, we were talking before we got started, is this question is, does my sexuality belong to my partner? Mm-hmm <affirmative> is, am I only a sexual person within the marriage when we're together? Or do I have a sexual identity, you know, separate of that or, and sexual experience, that's separate of that. And I'm not talking about, you know, going out and sleep with, with other people, but just do I, as a person have a sexual identity separate from that when I'm with my spouse or partner.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah. Yeah. That's
Speaker 1 (08:39):
A big question.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
<affirmative> and it is. And you know, so I think this is what makes talking about masturbation so difficult, but also I think so incredibly interesting because right. It, it sort of taps into these much bigger, more universal sort of dynamics and questions about relationships, about how, you know, a relationship is two individuals and it's also a couple, right? So it's three things and it can't be one and it can't be the, it can, it can't be too much of one and it can't be too much of the other, you know? So like how does that get balanced out? And in some ways, I mean, like there are certain topics in life that really become, uh, these kind of places where you gotta figure it out. So mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, things like, I don't know, there are some bands I really like that my wife finds either at best annoying or at worst, just born offensive.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right. But that's fine because I just don't put it on the speaker and I listen on my headphones or I listen at the gym and it's like, not a problem. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but then there's other things in life that are not quite as easy. So things like how many kids are we gonna have? Right. I can't decide to have three kids. And my wife decides to have one. I mean, I, if we wanna stay together, um, in terms of money that we spend or don't spend, right, a dollar spent is gone, right. You can't spend some of the, or, you know, spend it, but not spend it. And I think that sexuality and masturbation it, it fits into that as well. In the sense of like, are we doing it? Are we not doing it? And couples have to actually come to a decision, they need to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
They need to understand each other, understand themselves and then come to a decision. And I think that when they don't, then you get either, well, mostly what you get is kind of secret masturbation. Um, I was gonna say sometimes also what you get is like, uh, you know, okay. Find sort of a resentful compliance of, I won't do it, but boy, am I not happy about it? Yes. Um, and you know, the problem with secret, whatever is it it's often found out, right? Most of us are not being recruited by the CIA for our, you know, stealth skills. And if you're with someone enough, it's only a matter of time before, you know, somehow something gets discovered. Um, yeah. And you know, now we've got a problem and probably with terrible timing of when it, and how it came out, but now we have two problems. The one is you were doing this thing, the other is you were hiding it from me, you know, so right.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And not to, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think we actually have three problems. Yeah. Because the other is that I'm, I have a lot of feelings about the fact that I had to hide this.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yes,
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yes. So I may be resentful or unhappy or whatever, uh, shameful, because I'm maybe in, in the rules of that marriage, I'm lying to you. Or so yeah. I've got a lot of feelings that I'm carrying around. Everybody's got feelings about this, but nobody's talking about it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, exactly. And like everything that isn't talked about, like it, it makes more problems. Yeah. So, but you know, this is where it, it's hard. I mean, the obvious advice is you should talk about it, but like the obvious advice also is you should wake up at six in the morning, go running and then you should floss and then you should eat kale. Right. So like the, the saying is the easy part, but, but it's hard. It is hard. It's hard to have those conversations. It, especially about things like sexuality that can feel so vulnerable and that are so open to judgment, you know? Like, is there something that's interesting to me that is gonna freak you out and then you're gonna get judging and critical about it. Does it change how you see me or does your reaction change? How I see you. Right. Um, but like that is life. That is relationships. Um, intimacy is not, you know, only telling me the parts of you. I like intimacy is also man. There's some weird stuff about you. I totally don't get it, but that's okay. Cuz there's all the rest of you that I really do love and appreciate. And you know, I can tolerate other stuff, you know, if we handle it well.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah. I think that's, that's really true. The interesting thing about, um, masturbation is that even individually, maybe before I'm in a relationship or when I'm a kid or when I'm growing up, even when I, if I'm not in a relationship, there's all this stigma and shame around this and I'm wondering what your thoughts are as to kind of what the origin is to the shame that we carry around us kind of culturally around masturbating. Why is it that it's okay to go out and sleep with men or women, but not to kind of have to on, on your own? Yeah. I just, I just wondering what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah. I mean, I think it, it's definitely a true thing that, you know, I mean, it kind of comes down to this idea that sexuality is how dangerous, you know, like there there's risk there's, you know, problems come from, you know, too much sexuality or something. And I mean, it can like, it totally can. Mm-hmm <affirmative> people make terrible, terrible decisions about sexuality, but like, let's be honest, people make terrible decisions, everything. Right. So sex is not really unique at all. Like it's not, um, yeah, but you know, but it's this kind of basic distrust of sexuality. And I think it comes out of this idea that, you know, LA LA, LA, LA LA, I'm not thinking about it. It doesn't exist. Right. Like this idea that you can just sort of like make it go away. And if you don't pay attention to it, then somehow it just sort of doesn't it ceases to exist, which is slightly true, maybe, but mostly not.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Um, and you know, it sort of, unfortunately it creates this very self-fulfilling prophecy that if you can't talk about sexuality, if you can't think about it in a clear and complete way, I think it is more likely to cause problems. Yeah. Um, you know, so I mean, this is like a basic thing. Um, you know, folks who grow up in areas where they don't have, where they have marginal sex ed or, you know, just for, you know, ineffective and inaccurate sex ed have higher rates of STDs and higher rates of unplanned pregnancies. So, you know, like even just that one basic, you know, fact I think tells a lot. So, you know, the thing about it is sexuality, whether alone or was someone else, right. It's neither good nor bad. It's a question of what do you do with it? Are you making reasonable choices or you're making responsible, respectful choices about what you do? Um, and I think that, you know, certainly, yeah. I mean, I think that that's where it gets so complicated is that there's a stigma about even talking or thinking about it. So then people don't have the language or the comfort to really kind of figure this out.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right. And I think that makes a lot of sense. And also, as you were talking about earlier in talking about sexuality in general or in masturbation, there's this deep fear that who I am or what I am or what I to be will not be acceptable to my partner.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And if I show my hand that it's gonna bring us, tear us up, pull us apart rather than help bring us together. And so the safest thing is to just keep part of who I am under the covers kind of hidden.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And, but of course the result of that is that I don't get as close as I want to be. Cuz I, I crave this closeness, you know, I want to be close with my partner to be open and connected and attached and, and loving. And, but I'm afraid that if I really tell him or her who I am at this dimension that like you said, though, I'll be judged. Uh, I'll be, won't be accepted and I'll be, you know, hurt and disappointed that it turns out, ah, I can't have this thing I want to have, you know? Yeah. And you're not the person, you know, are you the person I should be with, if you can't really accept the person that I really am.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And it's so difficult.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
It is. But you know, the thing is you're putting your finger on, this is the dilemma of intimacy. Yeah. You know, we, we want it and yet we're scared of it because there's a risk, there's a great comfort in having it, that you have this thing that you feel kind of uncertain or even shameful about and you put it out there and your partner is really supportive and wonderful about it. We all hope for that. But also the reality is if you're, you know, once you get past the honeymoon phase, your partner's not gonna be okay with everything, you know, and some stuff that you bring up might tweak something in them for their own reasons. So, you know, so real intimacy once you've been around a while, doesn't involve, you know, like, um, kind of validating everything that is, that's a false premise like that won't happen.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Um, but that's okay. You know, like that real intimacy comes from the ability to be clear about who you are and to be able to self validate, to say like, you know what I, I feel okay about this. Even if my partner doesn't, you know, so again, back to the kind of dumb example of the bands, I, some of the bands I listen to, like, I feel totally fine. Like I understand all the complexities and the nuances and why she has her concerns, but I feel totally fine about the bands I listen to <laugh>. Um, but you know, this, this also then becomes, there's kind of a distinction here between what do we feel and what do we do? So if I'm cranking up music that she hates, right. That's not really respectful. Um, I think by the same token, if she says, I forbid you from listening to them, even by yourself, that's also not respectful.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Right. Right. And the problem is, you know, mandates tend to result in at best resentful compliance and at worst, you know, secret cheating of whatever sort. So, um, you know, so this is where it gets kind of complicated. And I think that, you know, if you're sort of, if you're masturbating unplugged, so to speak right, where you're, it's just you and your fantasies, you know, who's to know, right. Like no one can prove anything of what's going on in your head. Now this thing kind of gets into the porn topic. And I can't believe we've almost hit 20 minutes without bringing up porn in the topic of masturbation, but, but good kudos to us, right. Because masturbation and porn, not this same thing like they, right. Those need to be two separate conversations. But, um, you know, the thing about it is if your partner finds your browser history, mm-hmm, <affirmative> all of a sudden something is out on the table right now, what your partner thinks is on the table might not be the same thing as what, you know, you are sort of focusing on, but like there, there it is right there in a way that's very hard to deny.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
But I think that I, I totally agree, um, that they are not at all the same thing, but they often come up together in discussion between partners and you know, this desire of one partner to con control. The masturbation of the other partner is really an interesting phenomena. Mm-hmm <affirmative> within the relationship. And to me, and I'm wondering what you think is that it's driven by the sense that I'm not enough.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
That if you have to do that, that really means that I'm not enough for you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that, that is such an uncomfortable feeling to have of not being enough, that the way I deal with it is to forbid I'm gonna manage it. I'm gonna date. And I'm going to make, which is what I really hate. And I see happen. I'm gonna make masturbation a form of cheating of infidelity.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
If you have to look at naked guys or naked girls, then that's cheating. That's really an and a extension of this feeling of I'm not enough, but it takes, it's a hard discussion working with couples to help them look at that.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah. Well, and I think that, and I think that this is a really, I think it's a great example. That again goes way beyond just this topic, but is really so sort of present in many, many topics with couples, but, you know, so the question then is, so here is a thing that is happening right. In this case masturbation. But, but what does it mean? You know, so, so right. You know, often, like you said, often they kind of first go to, is this means I'm not for our sexual shared sexual experience. Isn't enough. That's an assumption. Now, if your partner says, honey, the reason why I is because you are not enough for me, or you're not hot enough or you're not good enough or some right. If they actually say that as a reason, then okay. Deal with that as a reason.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
But my guess is probably not. Right. Yeah. Almost never. When I hear, when I have clients who talk about masturbating, almost never like ever, I don't know, has it happened once? I don't know where they're like, yeah. The reason why I is because I, my partner's not really that good in bed. Right. That's not the thing that happens. So, so before we go kind a running to conclusions, let's actually find out like, stop mm-hmm, <affirmative> get your head back on, find out actually, what is going on with your partner? Why do they do it? How is it different from shared experiences? What does it all mean? Um, which is just good relationship advice of every very kind, you know. Um, so, you know, it's kind of like the idea of like understand the situation before you figure out what to do about it. Because if you don't understand the situation, you're gonna apply the wrong solutions so to speak.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah. So I'm an EFT therapist and an EFT. What we talk about is temp EMP, which is that there's a trigger mm-hmm, <affirmative>, let's say in this case, masturbation and I have an emotional response to that, but then there's also this big part where I make meaning of it. Yeah. Is I have a story that I tell about what this means. Sure.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And then I have this reaction or this protective reaction, but I think what you're saying, and I think is very true is we have to get down to that story of understanding, what do we see as the meaning of this for both of us okay. For both partners so that we can really get down to what, what is actually happening as opposed to kind of this, this story I make up on my own. Well, if he's doing that, that means I'm not enough or we're not enough. Yeah. Or he doesn't love me or I'm not desirable. And, but I agree, it's, it's, it's almost never about the set is like, it's just the same way. There's this kind of belief, this myth that people cheat have, it are unfaithful because the sex at home isn't good enough or frequent enough and well, maybe 5% at the time or 3% of the time that might be the core issue. Right. But no, no, <laugh>, that's not, what's going on 95% of the time. It's not about, about that. And, and the same thing here.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah. Well, and the, you know, so the thing of it is if, you know, if, if you have the wrong understanding for what's happening, you know, you're, you're gonna wind up with the wrong, like I said, you're gonna wind up with the wrong solutions. Right? Yeah. So, you know, it's really hard, really, really hard for these kind of sensitive vulnerable subjects to actually like calm your response enough to really actually be able to hear what you're part is saying. But, you know, part of it also is it's, it can be hard for the partner to reveal it partially because of their own shame and discomfort with it. Or maybe they're not a hundred percent clear inside themselves about, you know, what are they doing and why, and what does it mean and what doesn't it and all that. Um, you know, but it also kind of become this thing.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
If they, if the partner who got caught is concerned about their other partner's response, they're probably gonna be less honest. Or as I say, you know, you can't punish honesty and expect the truth, you know? So if the, if the partner who catches someone masturbating either blows a up and gets angry or falls apart into tears and you know, is kind of beating themselves up. Both of those, nobody wants that, you know? So that is likely to shut the partner down, perhaps lead to sort of false promises. I'll never do it again, which they probably mean at the moment. Sometimes they're lying and they're like, no, I don't mean it. I fricking know I'm gonna do this again. I'm just, I just don't want to deal with you right now. But like, but you know, probably, you know, if you're not a sociopath, right. You mean it when you say it.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Right. But you know, it's like if you told your wife, okay, that from now on, I'm going to every day, I'm waking up at 6:00 AM going for a run, right? Like, no, you're not right. Let's all be honest. That's not, don't like, you shouldn't say it and she shouldn't believe it. So, um, but you know, the other side of this is especially in couples that have kind of a bigger, desired discrepancy as it's called. In other words, one person would like to four times a week, the other is more than happy with ones. It creates this terrible, no win situation that either the one, the higher desire partner is either feels deprived all the time, which is a setup for trouble or worse. Maybe, um, the lower desire partner feels like they're having sex. They don't want right. The best way to kill your sex life is have sex.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
You don't want, you know, and then the hire desire partner knows the low desire partner. It's only showing up cuz they have to. Yeah. Right. It's like, it's like the going to the DMV to get your license renewed. Right. Like, oh, that that's as excited as you are about this. Great. Um, so, you know, I think to be able to have an honest discussion and you know, I think that this is often a thing that doesn't happen, right? Like this thing, if you cheated on me, well, cheating implies that there was a mutual understanding and agreement and maybe there was, but you know what, often there isn't right there. Isn't there hasn't been a discussion. Did they cheat? I don't know. It feels like it, but your partner may not feel the same way. So like, let's be clear on what are we doing? How does this all fit together? Where do your, your desires and my desires, where do they intersect and where do they diverge? And really, really be honest. And don't make agreements. You can't keep
Speaker 1 (28:22):
As you, you, you kind of started that, that discussion right now with, you know, let's have an honest discussion, but I'm wondering how do you, as a, as a sex therapist, as, as a couple's therapist, help your couples learn how to have an honest discussion. I mean, what, how can we help people learn how to actually talk about this instead of hide from it?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's about, it's about really being able to be honest and vulnerable and to, to speak from your own experience. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and to be able to ask a lot of questions, get curious about your partner's experience and a good way to have void that is to talk in generalities or to make sweeping generalizations. All men, all women, all porn, all master, like that's a great way to not talk about yourself. You know what, it doesn't matter what other couples do. It doesn't matter. Like unless you're a policy maker or a something, right. Like it does, does it matter what society is doing? Um, you are two people together in one relationship. It only matters what the two of you are doing. Talk about yourself, right. Be clear about how you feel about what is interesting, what feels uncomfortable. Definitely the reasons why let's get into the whys of this let's really, really understand the situation before we have any discussion about what we're doing about it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, you know, in terms of this, we can, you know, we can't control what our partner feels or thinks or design, but we do have some, you know, say on what they do or at least we have some say on what we do, you know? So, you know, I'm asking you, like, this makes me feel really uncomfortable. I'm asking that you don't do this kind of a thing. Um, right. Okay. You know, um, maybe, and then for the other partner either to say, you know what, okay, fine. Yeah. I'll, I'll do that. You know, like I accept the fact that I won't be listened to some bands, you know, on the Sonos, in the kitchen in the morning. Um, but, but you know, in other ways to say like, you know what, like, I can't like, no, I can't, I, I can't, I'm not gonna agree to that. Like, I will not feel good about it. I feel like I'm selling self out and I don't think I'm gonna be able to stick to it. So like let's again, no false agreements back to the drawing board. Let's talk some more.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah. No, I think that's very right. If you don't mind already, I'm gonna press, I'm gonna push a little bit on you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Do
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It. How do we get people to be willing? Or how do we help people to be willing to start that of talking about themselves? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, where do you go to help them kind of open up, begin to open up those that way, um, and take and take that risk, the, that vulnerable risk.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
So this is a cost of doing business. If you wanna be in a satisfying long term relationship, this is what it takes on this topic and many others. But if you can do it well on this topic, you will carry those skills to whatever the other topics are. So, you know, if you want an ongoing, satisfying relationship in general, if you want an ongoing, satisfying sex life, these are the conversations that you need to be able to have. They're not fun all the time. And, you know, we wish we didn't have to, but like, this is adulthood. This is what really good relationships require. But the good news is there's a lot of benefit for it. You know, it's like after you go for a run, you don't always wanna beforehand. Hopefully you feel okay, five minutes in, but you know, like you're better off for it.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
You know, like that is a good thing. And all the rest of your day and all the rest of your week is better for having done it. So, you know, so I think to really kind of remind yourself of what the benefit is on the other side, even if you're just sort of taking it on faith. Um, but you know, like if, as a couple you keep kind of crashing into the same rocks, which is often the case. Um, I don't know, like it might be that seeing a therapist together can, you know, help you guys learn some better ways to kind of manage the process a little differently so that, you know, those conversations go better.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Right? No, I totally agree with that. One of the ways I frame this with my couples is that one of my jobs, or one of my primary job freely is to help them have difficult conversations that they're having trouble doing on their own. Yes. Cause as you said, they keep crashing into that same rock. And so we're, we're having a difficult conversation together. The three of us and my job is help keep them present. And here in that conversation, because it's so uncomfortable that it's kind of like a people want to escape or they, so they'll, they'll either try not to have it or they'll, they'll put up what I call Shaf, you know, something to distract. Yeah, sure. So they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll throw something up. That's totally unrelated, but just let's, let's go do let's you know, it's like, let's go look over here. It's kinda like this direction <laugh> and so we sit together the three of us working very slowly through a difficult conversation. Yeah. And it, and everybody feels kind of uncomfortable, but like you said, really better for the process.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah. And I think I'm gonna highlight a word you use slowly. Mm. Bad conversations happen quickly. Right. Move quickly, better conversations happen much more slowly. Right. In that, you know, a couple who's been around for a while. Right? Like they move quickly through the bad conversation cuz we all know the script. Right. You know like, oh this is how it goes here. I say this. And then you say that, and then I do this and then you do that, right? Like you don't have to have the conversation cuz you already know how it's gonna go. So the trick is to really, really, really slow it down to, down to call a timeout. If you need it with, you know, the implicit agreement that you will indeed come back, timeout is not forever. It's just for now. Um, and to really try to understand the situation in a better way to really kind of keep in mind what are my better ways of responding? Cause we all have the ease E bad ways. Those are pretty ingrained. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> you know, and you really be able to kind of hang in there and find out what's going on with yourself. Find out what's going on with your partner and to not read in what isn't actually there. You know? And that's a lot of where we get ourselves into trouble is we, we start making assumptions that are, are really not actually all that true.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And I think, you know, in terms on a functional level, like you said about taking breaks, this isn't a problem that we have to solve. It's like, okay, so last night my wife and I are working out, you know? Okay. So some issue around taxes and you know, so we had, we had to solve that problem. How big a check are we gonna write and what, from what account? Okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but when we're talking about when, when couples are talking about their sex life, this is like an ongoing conversation. This is not let's solve this problem. Come to an answer. This is like, oh, I didn't know that. Let's talk about that. Let's you know, that curiosity and that slowness, like you talked about is so hard to do, but so beneficial to, to see this as, oh, let's slow this down. What does that really mean? What you just said? Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. That is
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Especially about sex, which is so especially
Speaker 1 (36:20):
About sex.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
It's so loaded. There's so much kind of, I don't know, just sort of like implicit knowledge about it, you know? Yeah. And then by implicit, what I mean is not always right. But you know, all these kind of societal messages, so it's like, oh, I know what that means. Do you no seriously, like, do you know what that means? And you know, there's also something there of like having your partner really sort of question some stuff mm-hmm <affirmative> might help you yourself, better understand it. Right. You know, what does this mean? Does it mean anything that that's worth knowing? Does it not like what's the deal here to really, really kind of understand it. Um, and you know, nobody's gonna challenge you to understand yourself and what you do more than your partner is.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yes. Yes. And my experience is also that people besides wanted to solve it, they want to bring it down to, well, what do we do? What, you know, oh, so you want me to, to do this? Or you want me, you know, or I want this behavior in bed and nine times outta 10, that's not really what's going on. What I really want to do is I want to talk to you about how it feels to have sex with you, how I feel about our sex life, how it feels like for us to be together, you know, how I feel about my own sex, sexuality and the ways in which I'm kind of happy or not happy. It's not, not about we do move number 12 more often. That's not the deal.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Right. Well, I think it's also really important, you know, like, I don't know, what does move number 12 mean? You know, why is it interesting? What is it about that versus something else that seems interesting to you or that feels, you know, like uncomfortable to the other person? Um, you know, because again, like that's the place where we make tons of assumptions really quickly. Oh, I know what that means. Well, but, but do you, do you, um, yeah. Yeah. So, and that, I don't know, like in some ways I think it's that willingness to explore willingness to kind of let some things evolve that keeps life in. If you're gonna have sex with the same person for like 40 years, you know, like a, a little bit of a variety is probably a helpful thing. Um, you know, or otherwise you get into, this is kind of one of my favorite lines, you know, from the, the lake great Robin Williams where he said, you know, I don't know what the big deal is about same sex marriage, cuz you know, anybody who's been married for a while knows it's all the same sex anyway.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Right. That's true in some way, like there's the part of it. That's kind of sad and there's a part of it. That's actually kind of cool. Right? The part that's sad is if you're not able to have these discussions, it is the same sex and let's be honest. It's not that much more interesting, you know, becomes less interesting or over time if you're having exactly the same sex every single time. Um, the part that's kind of cool is it may be the same sex in a sort of, I don't know, in the sense of what the camera might capture, if you know what I mean, in terms of the acts that are performed or something, but kind of emotionally or interpersonally, it can be a different experience in it physically. It's a lot of the same kinds of things, you know, it's sort of like, how do you show up in that sexual experience? What do you bring to it and how do you and your partner interact, cuz you can absolutely have sex with another person and have like very little going on between. It's like, you know, parallel play. It's like two people in the same room, but they really, really connected and open and, and intimate.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
No, that's so true. That's a great point. Well, Ari, I, I wanna be respectful of your time and, and start, uh, wrapping up cuz this is, but I have to tell you, this has been the fastest 40 minutes. This has been such an interesting discussion. It just flew the time, just flew by, but I want to make a make, take a second to make sure to mention kind of you actually have, um, four books around, um, ADHD. I mean one's a, one's a clinical book mm-hmm <affirmative> but I'm just gonna mention the titles. The most recent one is ADHD after dark, better sex life and better relationships. Then this other one is understanding your brain, get more done. The ADHD executive function workbook, and lastly, more attention, less deficit success strategies for adults with ADHD. And I just want to kind of, um, suggest to kind of listeners that if you have a ADHD or, or you have, um, a partner or a kid or a friend and they're and you see them struggling, um, that these books are extraordinary resources to helping people live more successful, more comfortable lives with while accepting and actually through accepting and embracing and understanding kind of how their brain works.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
It's not like their brain is bad. It's like, oh, I've gotta understand how, how my brain works. And if I understand that, then I can make all, all kinds of wonderful decisions and strategies for managing.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah. I mean I'm a firm believer in education and maybe cuz I'm a little bit impatient by which, I mean I'm more than a little bit impatient. Um, <laugh> like do not reinvent the wheel. Right? Smart people have come before you people have figured out really good ideas. Don't figure it out the hard way. Um, and you know, the whole purpose of a diagnosis or a label of any kind is it helps us understand situation, which narrows us down to the things that are gonna be most likely to be helpful. And yeah, you know, like my books are full of things that I hope to be helpful. There's lots of other good stuff out there. Um, you know, the national ADHD organization, chad.org, C H a d.org, um, you know, there's lots of good inform, do not struggle figuring it out yourself. So, you know, for the person with ADHD, for the partner also equally, or if you're, you know, you got a kid, by the way, if you have a kid with ADHD, good chance, one of the parents has ADHD.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
So you know, a lot of parents get a lot of adults get diagnosed through their kids. Um, that's interesting, but yeah, I mean, you know, take this information, use it well so that you're both happier. And by the way, if you're the non ADHD partner, you're not listening to that blog or podcast or, or reading the blog or listen to the podcast or webinar or book as a favor to your partner, you're doing it as a favor to yourself. You'll both be happier. So, so yeah, so I appreciate you bringing this up cuz like I'm all about knowledge and empowerment.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
And I think that the point you just made was so important. You're not doing it as a favor to them. You're doing it as a favor to yourself. This is how you express and show both love and connection, but also how you are more successful and HAPPI you're in that relationship that you have with that person.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
And how you support them. Well, Ari Tuckman, thank you so much. This has been just great. I really appreciate the time and the discussion it's been wonderful. I, and um, I wish you all the best you take care. Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
All right, bye bye. Well, that's our episode for today. I hope you found it interesting and useful, but most of all, I'd like to thank you for listening. If you have a minute, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating. And I hope to see you again soon on another episode of sex, love and couples therapy.