107. The Gift of Forgiveness with Dr. Fred Luskin
What does it mean to forgive? Is it really possible to forgive someone? In this fascinating discussion with Dr. Fred Luskin, the world-recognized expert on forgiveness, we'll learn how and why we can forgive. And, how forgiveness actually frees us from the prison of our own anger.
Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's therapist in San Francisco. I wanna welcome you to sex love and couple's therapy. We all want to feel loved. That's a universal desire, but sometimes instead of feeling loving our relationships, feel confusing, frustrating, and a little crazy making the purpose of this podcast is to help you clear up some of that confusion so that you and your partner can find ways to make your relationship feel closer, more connect, to do more loving. So stay tuned. We've got a lot of great stuff to talk about, and now let's go talk about my three favorite topics, sex love, and couples therapy.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So welcome to sex love and couple therapy. And today we have a really, really interesting topic to explore the question of forgiveness. Forgiveness is such an interesting and complex topic, and it's something that comes up in therapy and, and between partners and couples all the time and today to help us explore that, that topic. I have Dr. Luskin Fred is the director of the Stanford university forgiveness projects, a senior consultant in health promotion at Stanford university and a professor at the Institute for transpersonal psychology, as well as an affiliate faculty member of the greater good science center. Fred is best known, I think perhaps for the kind of the Bible on for forgiveness that he wrote called for forgive for good, a proven per prescription for health and happiness, as well as stress for good 10 proven life skills for health and happiness. So I'd like to welcome today, Dr. Fred Luskin, Fred, thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You know, before we get into forgiveness itself, I wonder are in my experience, people choose dissertation topics or research areas, both for the intellectual curiosity or the interest in a topic, but often there's also something kind of personal that draws them to the area. And I'm wondering what drew you to the topic of forgiveness?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
A few things, um, always had a longstanding interest in spiritual practices in life purpose in like, what are we doing here? And found that the I'm gonna say the spiritual barely religious and answers were the most satisfying to me. And so when I had to come up with a dissertation topic, it was in the nineties when there was a, a modest reconciliation between science and religion. And so I wanted to show that a virtue like from the spiritual end could be shown through science to be valuable on the material end.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Ah,
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And, and when I started to do this, there was almost none there, there were a handful of, of studies, nothing on compassion or love or hope or gratitude or anything. And I chose forgiveness because I couldn't choose compassion. Like compassion was the first quality that came to my mind, but there were no studies on compassion. Interesting. And even at Stanford, as a doctoral student, you can't create a field. So I chose forgiveness because at the time I did my dissertation, there were three studies in the domain of forgiveness. So I wasn't inventing a field.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
That's so interesting. I really appreciate that idea of finding that it intersection of science and spirituality. It's so interesting also because that's changed so much since you started that in the, in the nineties and that's now become quite a huge field in understanding that neurophysiology and how our bodies respond to kind of mindfulness and meditation. The, these are really big changes that have happened in our field. While, for example, I'm an EFT therapist and the whole question changed in orientation towards kind of relational that we exist in a relation with another person.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Of course,
Speaker 1 (04:34):
It's hard to believe that that was a radical notion. Not that many years ago,
Speaker 2 (04:38):
It's still somewhat of a radical notion that we have responsibilities to other people that other people feelings matter as much as ours do that our humanity is defined by being empathic to others and generous. I don't think that's that big in the merit and family world. It's still more are about what the self wants.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I think that's, that's very true. And, and I think that many therapists may, you know, even couple therapists have difficulties. They wanna make it very transactional. They shy away from the emotions that come up rather than seeing these emotions as the communication, the vehicle for exchanging connection and attachment.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Of course,
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I I'd like to kind of talk a little bit about forgiveness. And I guess my first question is that forgiveness is really, to me, quite a complex concept. And I wonder from your point of view, what does forgiveness mean? What does it actually mean to forgive someone?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Um, you free yourself of the burden of your resentment or self pity from not being at peace with your own life.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
That's such an important perspective. And I think when I was reading your materials, it's woven throughout is this idea that in forgiving, let's say my partner, I'm really doing that as an exercise for my own benefit. You know, I'm not, it may be also for the benefit of the relationship, but I'm not doing it to change him or her. I'm doing it to let, let's go of that pain that I feel that I carry with me.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I'm not, I'm not sure it's that explicitly transactional, as much as we recognize that a at some level we made up the grudge mm-hmm <affirmative> that it simply events and people, and we made meaning out of it. And we held onto a certain kind of meaning that imprisoned us. So what we're doing is taking a key and letting ourselves out of a prison that we created
Speaker 1 (07:00):
And how do we do that? Cuz we, cuz you're absolutely right. We've, let's say there's an injury, you know, and the, the typical one for forgiveness might be infidelity, but it could be, um, so many other things that happen in, in a relationship, small, large, and we develop that GRU. We make meaning this, that, that he or she didn't come home or sh they were flirting with someone or actually had an affair with someone or let us down in some way. And we make meaning and make that grudge from this meaning, what does it mean? Or how do I let go of that grudge? How do I, how do I look at that event and change to the meeting that I've given to that event?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I mean, there's a number of things. First has to be, um, some responsibility for oneself that, um, the other day I was coaching an old student who, um, was really upset because of old partners in fidelity. And, and I, I, I told them that the biggest error that they made was thinking that the partners infidelity caused their excessive emotional reaction and that they were two separate things, right? The partner was unfaithful and that's clearly true. And you had an excessive, emotional reaction, which is yours to deal with. And you, at this point, it has nothing to do with the infidelity. It's it's, you have a problem. It's like you have a growth on your arm or you have diabetes and, and you need to take care of your problem, which is excessive reactivity to something that happened in the past. That doesn't excuse the behavior, but it, it puts the attention where it can actually help.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It's interesting. You SA talked about not excusing the behavior. And I think in my experience, working with clients that line or that misconception, that forgiveness is also condoning or accepting. And I just gonna read there's one quick little thing that you wrote when you talked about a case history with a, a patient named Dolores, you say she suffered under the misconception that forgiving skip meant condoning his actions, or it meant forgetting what had happened. And I think that that's, that's so important and such a powerful statement because I see that again and again, with my couples where the barrier to forgiveness is if I forgive him or her, that means what, what they did was okay. Can you talk a, a little bit about how that forgiveness doesn't mean condoning or, and I don't have forget if I forgive,
Speaker 2 (09:57):
If it's okay. You don't need to forgive it. It's that simple. So if a behavior is okay, it's okay. So just move on. There's not, there's no issue there. The problem is there are behaviors that we know are not okay. Right.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And that's where forgiveness comes into place. So it's just mental nonsense when they tell you, um, well, you know, if I forgive him, it makes an okay. Nothing makes drowning a kid. Okay. But you can still forgive it. And, and nothing makes, you know, any of the really horrible things that human beings do. Okay. So it's, it's just not nonsense to distract themselves from the work of forgiveness, which is, there are certain things in this life that certainly are like Carly, wrong, spiritually, wrong, interpersonally, wrong. Just, they're just not in harmony and we have to deal with them. That's one. So there's an acceptance of that. Like mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I have to deal with these experiences and I can stay mired in anger or resentment of self pity because some of that happened to me, or I can recognize that here's an experience that wasn.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Okay. But I still have to wake up tomorrow morning and figure out what to do with that. So the okayness is somewhat irrelevant, but let's just say, it's not okay. What makes forgiveness so powerful is we don't lose our moral compass and we don't lose our ability to do concern, but we recognize that our being upset about something endlessly doesn't improve either the situation for us or anybody else in this world. It just keeps us stuck. We're not, we're not making a great case for, you know, you know, the American, whatever. We're simply being cranky human beings. And, and, and, and we make it seem like so powerful and righteous, and it's none of those things. The second thing is, um, um, it's, again, it's a non, it's a, it's a topology. You can't forget bad things,
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Right?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
So it's stupid to even talk about it. What you can do is remember it differently. And that's what forgiveness is.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I like that because I also read one more quick thing that you wrote forgiving. Someone does not mean forgetting or appro of the hurtful event in the past. Rather it means letting go of your hurt and anger and not making someone else endlessly responsible for your emotional wellbeing. And I think that's such an important point that, and yet, and it sounds so simple right now, as we talk about it and so clear and so obvious, but that is also so difficult for, for people to sometimes remember that I am forgiving this person, that's this, this bad behavior so that I can get on with my life and I can move forward. Doesn't mean that I, I have to stay friends with them. It doesn't mean that I have to stay married to them, but it does mean that I get the freedom to move forward with my life, rather than being stuck in that repetitive cycle.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
When we were contemplating all this, the, the question that came up is what do you do with dead people?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So if they're dead, does that mean you can't move on? Mm-hmm cause if, if some of the things you were saying were true, it's up, time's up, but clearly with dead people, you're making the whole thing up, cause they're gone well, that it's all a mental thing with forgiveness. And, and it also shows to me how poorly you're being educated as a therapist, that forgiveness being, if not, I'm not gonna say the most important, but certainly among the top five human qualities for healing, the fact that it's ignored in therapeutic training, right.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Just,
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Just shows the inadequacy of it. And the I'm gonna say the hard ego level of not wanting to admit that when not dissenter the universe, so crappy things happen and therapists make their money off of people, endlessly exploring their woundedness
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So, so forgiveness is not good for business in that way. You know, it's no different than the doctor who prescribes pills and not exercise because that's, that's how they profit
Speaker 1 (14:55):
In my graduate program. I don't remember spending any time on the concept of forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Exactly. And I didn't either. I have, so I have 3000 for an MFT and then 3000 for a PhD. So I have 6,000 supervised hours. I'm gonna say one of them was spent on forgiveness and compassion combined. And so that's an inadequate education. And so therapists are not being well trained. Right?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
No, I agree. <affirmative> and I think that we, as a society, don't value the concept of forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
In fact, we see forgiveness as somehow being weak.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I know because it's actually too strong for people to handle. Yeah. It's saying that really crappy things might have happened to me and, and having worked with all sorts of horror in this world. Right. Really crappy things do happen. Do
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Happen? No question about it.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
No, BSing that for a second. No. So it is tough right there to just hold that. Then the even harder question is who's responsible from my experience now, is it them? Or is it me? Well, both of those realizations take a lot of guts and strength to say really bad things has happened. And I'm now responsible for my life, which includes that painful thing. Right? Then you work on the story that you tell about what all this is about. And so those three things take a lot of work and a lot of effort and a lot of maturity. So of course they're not gonna be easily promoted. They're high level skills.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
They're very, they are high level skills. And they do take a lot of work in that because a lot goes into that concept. The ability to forgive a lot goes into understanding kind of my relationship to what happened both before and after my relationship I feelings and how I've responded to this. And I, I even, it, it comes up in a broader kind of social setting or cultural setting. When we think about countries like South Africa and, you know, truth and reconciliation or Rwanda after the genocide or Wanda mm-hmm <affirmative> that here we've had whole nations find a path not to forget, but to forgive
Speaker 2 (17:45):
You see what a difference it makes.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yes. It's a, it's, it's such a powerful, um, experience. It's such a powerful change agent in the world to be able to forgive
Speaker 2 (17:58):
One practice that we, that we all can do. And even as therapists is just simply ask clients, um, like what's keeping you for, I being happy now, right? Like what are you holding onto with blame that stops you from seeing the beautiful world that you're in right this moment and you'll hear their grudges.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Right there. Yeah. My mother didn't love me. My ex was a bomb. Um, my identity group is, is mistreated, whatever it is, but you see right there that they're telling you that they're sacrificing their happiness to hold onto a grudge. They won't like to hear that, but you can see it right there.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Right. And there's, there's this value that we place, I think on righteous anger,
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Like it's really helpful short term to be righteously angry.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
The problem is, is if you're righteously angry for a decade,
Speaker 2 (19:02):
It's just anger.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It's just anger. Right.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And, and you know enough about the brain that the brain on anger does not make good decisions. And so that that's not the brain you want guiding your ship.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
So what do you think makes it so difficult for people, especially Americans, let's say to even consider the concept of forgiveness. I mean, why do people, when you bring it up to them, at least initially until they understand it more kind of rebel against it and push back?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, they're not being asked to very often. So that's part of it. And there's very little education, as we mentioned, even from therapists around forgiveness. So it's, it's not an equal player at the table. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but the biggest is the sense of self wants to hold onto its dominion and its resentments for all the ways the world didn't honor that sense of self. So, you know, it, the simple, the car cut me a off the girlfriend dis to me, the, I don't know all the ways that our centrality in our own narrative is challenged.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So that's a great way of looking at it that the sense of self holds on to this or resist the forgiveness because that diminishes their sense of San neutrality and power.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That's it. And it doesn't want, it doesn't wanna see reality, which is we don't have that much power and we're quite vulnerable. So we create grievances and anger and all these other things to obscure reality.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's so interesting. And, and to use the term, I, I apologize. I've forgotten exactly the term now. Um, but it's the kind of the equivalent of unreasonable expectations,
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Unenforceable rules.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
There we go. Thank you very much that one of the things that leads us into this, the meaning we make and the anger that comes up over the, over these terrible things that happen to us and to others in the world is that there's a, that ego sense of self wants to be able to enforce some code behavior.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
And I also think that there's a belief that if I can't enforce that behavior, if that behavior, if goes on, it says something about me in, in that I get upset because if, if he does that to me, or she does that to, it's saying something about who I am and my power and my kind of worth. And so we reject strongly that idea that I, I am, I can't control their behavior.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I mean, I, I might emphasize the fear of vulnerability more. Hmm. I that's what I think, I mean, that's just my take on it that we really don't wanna recognize how uncertain and we are and how much threat there is. And like, at the other level, we don't wanna recognize how much we have to be grateful for and how much goodness there is. Cuz the ego wants to stay in a very narrow, like controlling position. And so it both asserts its false authority and refuses to honor all the goodness that it's given. I mean the Buddhist have that wonderful practice of, you know, just think of a something you eat and just think of the thousands of people's labor who had to do something to get that apple right in front of you. Like you, you, we have no clue what the reducing valves that we're putting on this world and oh, unforgiveness is simply the result of those reducing valves.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
And I think that, that, that concept of gratitude Yeah. And recognizing kind of where we fit into the chain of the world and gratitude for all the things that exist in our life is another incredibly powerful and incredibly underutilized power in, in, in healing and in finding happiness in the world. But again, it's something that people at first blush often push back sense of gratitude. And we, we started talking about compassion along with forgiveness. I believe that there's a link between forgiveness and self compassion
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And, and even more important than that compassion for others. <laugh> I think you can hear that. I don't hear to like traditional ways of thinking, but I, in some of the couple stuff that I've done, I, I try to get people to recognize what an absolute pain in the they are and what an amazing thing is that their partners still shows up.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Uh, so true. That's so true
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Lady. You are some piece of work and the fact that this guy is still here trying, I don't know how you could be anything but thankful, right? Because I'm not interested in rampaging, egos just attacking each other. And um, so the compassion, the, what we do to others that makes them react and feel pain. That's a big part of this kind of expansion.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
This is a little tangential, but I think one of the kind of battles in the way different people look at therapy is that culturally we're very much aimed at the individual
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Exactly
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Being separate. And there's this whole ethos and mythology about, I have to become my own individual person in reality, from my point of view that I look at the world through. And when I think about the couples that I sit with, the real challenge is learning how to be vulnerable, to be open and to be, uh, attached. That's so much harder to do than to be separate.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
No question. It seems when you look at a developmental psychologist, you have to be separate first and then you can reduce those boundaries to become attached. Like, like even Steven Covey, you know, he refers to that evolution from dependent to in then, then to interdependent that, that, um, like you have to have some sort of coherent self mm-hmm <affirmative> and then you can join with, with someone else. But you've met therapeutic patients who are just such a mess mm-hmm <affirmative> internally they can't join with anybody easily. But just being that independent self is never gonna make people happy.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right. Right. Cause I can have two very independent people, but if they can't, if they're unable to join together in, in that marriage, if they're just living as independent people together, that's not really happiness. That's not really marriage. That's just, that's a, that's a small slice of what's available to them.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I mean, in, in the couple, this work that I've done, I mean, I do see that there is a developmental process that people learn through a loving partner to get over themselves a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And to accommodate another point of view. And that is really hard work.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah. It's really hard work. And often couples can't can't manage that. I know, you know, just kind of from my life, my wife and I both came to the marriage with some difficulty in that area
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Who doesn't
Speaker 1 (27:41):
<laugh> who doesn't. But there was some thing about the combination of the two of us that allowed us to work through it, to stay together and, and to really surrender to that kind of coming together. Right. Which has made it so that, you know, we're together for 41 years.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And happily,
Speaker 2 (28:03):
And you become, you become more that way. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and the thing that I keep on saying is you never, would've gotten there if you couldn't forgive each other.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
If you also not only couldn't forgive each other, but also couldn't recognize and be grateful for what each of, of you gives to the other.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And these are, um, these are higher order skills, you know, I think one of the reasons like, like your education in my mind was deficient was a lot of therapists haven't gotten to these levels either of, yeah. It's not just working out what was bad, it's cultivating these growth oriented ideas so that, you know, you could give up a part of yourself, she could give up a part of herself, you could respect the other, you can hear their feedback and take it in. Those are high level skills,
Speaker 1 (29:05):
You know, there's this tendency reduce things down to, if I just get better at these kind of lower level transactional skills, if we, you know, if we just figure out how to kind of talk differently, you know, talk that, but that's not really gonna get you where you need to go.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And you know, those, those wonderful study, I messages that showed that they have no impact. Right. Cause our non-verbal so overwhelms the simple language.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
It doesn't matter if I say, I feel, if everything else is saying, I hate you, I'm angry and hate you.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
It's your fault that this is your fault. Right?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's so true in my experience. And what we learn to do as in emotionally focused therapy is really kind of slow the process way, way down, give space to share that full range of feeling both the way I I'm connecting with you. And also the way in which I am terrified to connect with you.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I know it's quite something, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's just amazing. And it's, that's why, what makes it such a wonderful and amazing experience to sit down with couples and see them try to work this out.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I know
Speaker 1 (30:24):
One of the reasons I love working with couples is here. You have these two people who really adore each other who really love each other who really want to be close and they're trying and trying, but they can't do it, find a way to do it on their own. And, and my job is to help them do what they really already want to do, which is to find a way to feel safe and close with each other.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It's good work.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah. It's great work. It's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I mean, I'll just, I'll just offer again that I think explicit training and forgiveness is a crucial P piece of that when they, when they do research on what are the, what are the things that allow long term marriages to succeed? Forgiveness is always there,
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Right? Yeah. Because we're, we're always injuring each other.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Always,
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You know, I, so I tell my clients all the time that the goal is not to learn how to not fight, cuz that's an impossible goal. The goal is to learn how to mend the rift, how to, how to come back together. H how to, how to kind of forgive and accept
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And Gottman's idea of repair being so essential. Right.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Right. We have to repair.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
We can't just try to get hope that they will forget. We have to repair.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And I, again, I would focus on my need to offer repair, which is the opposite of the grievance, which is it's your fault.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
But the relationship prospers, when I recognize I want this to work. And so I have to reach out past my smallness and try to offer a repair. I won't do that if I don't have some forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
And then lastly, I just want to make sure our, our listeners are aware that you have, uh, in your book on forgiveness, uh, forgive for good, a proven prescription for health and happiness. And I'm gonna put a link to your books on the show notes, but in that you have a nine point process or forgiveness process, which I th and I'm gonna have a link to that, of the show notes as well, about how people can start thinking about and moving towards forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know, you asked me before, like how do you do it? And I was gonna respond to you very simply. Just like, if you really asked me that question as a person, I would say, well, first just relax. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like take a deep breath. Um, let go, quiet down center, open your heart up. Think of someone love, like just quiet there. And then when you quiet ask yourself, like, is it true that the world really always has to give me what I want or has to be the way I want. And then from that quiet place, you'd recognize that no, it doesn't always have to work out the way you want or be the way you want. And then I'd of them. If that's true, then, then how do you cope with the stuff that's on your plate? That wasn't the way you wanted. And that, that would be my 32nd kind of like, this is what we're talking about. We're going inside and was saying, it hurt it. Wasn't the way you wanted. And you, you don't need to stay bitter about that.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
To me, what's amazing is how hard it is for people to hear what you just said and accept it and to think of letting go. That is such a difficult concept for people to get. It's so fascinating how, how hard we will hold on to the, at bitterness until we die, that the things you've hit on. And, and then we'll close is, are really kind of essential. This idea of compassion for others. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and compassion for self mm-hmm <affirmative>. This combination is what makes for, for kind of the closeness that we're, that we're all looking for to both love and to feel loved
Speaker 2 (34:46):
And gratitude and gratitude for when, for what other people do for us. And, and what the last two last things I'll say. So you can hear my full curmudgeon, um, is that gratitude is not what you see in Facebook or LinkedIn. Gratitude is an active humility. It is not ever a like announcing the self. The, the researchers on gratitude are clear that it's a humble appreciation of goodness delivered to us that we cause like, that's what gratitude is. It's a, it's a self transcending quality. The, that, um, the, the second piece is when people ask me about self forgiveness, my response is, yeah, there's simply too much of it. And that I think the world needs a lot less self forgiveness because we let ourselves off the hook all the time for terrible behavior. Right? I think there's way too much of that. And um, most people don't think of that when they think of self-forgiveness, but it's self-forgiveness is, is acknowledging our terrible behavior in the same way that we acknowledge other people's. And then we make peace by offering a sincere apology when possible and amends. Otherwise it doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I'll also put a link in here or send you, I have an article about the five steps to a, a sincere and meaningful apology. Exactly. Everything you just said is covered in that, because we are trained from our earliest days in these fake apologies that I, if I, you say, I'm sorry, that's supposed to take care of it. And I'm sorry, does is just like the first small step, but it's all the other that acknowledgement that acceptance that reparation,
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Hey, I'm sorry. You feel bad, which is an anti apology. Oh,
Speaker 1 (36:56):
That's like, that's like when some, a celeb gets on and says, I'm sorry, I made you uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I will screw you guy. You know
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Exactly. Hey Jacob, I gotta go. And
Speaker 1 (37:10):
It was great talking to you.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
It was delightful. Maybe we can meet up in SA Alito sometime.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I would love that. Thank you, Fred. Take care and have a great day.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Bye bye. Thank bye. Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Well, that's our episode for today. I hope we found it interesting and useful, but most of all, I'd like to thank you for listening. If you have a minute, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating. And I hope to see you again soon on another episode of sex, love and couples therapy.