Affair Recovery: Sex after an
affair with Jennifer Gingras

Episode Description

Starting to have sex again after an affair is often a major stumbling block for couples. Being intimate can trigger intense feelings of shame, anxiety, and sadness for both partners. But becoming more physically and emotionally intimate gives the couple a way to slowly work through these difficult feelings. In addition, by demonstrating patience, empathy, and kindness, the involved partner can play an active role in helping their injured partner heal and contribute to the affair recovery.

In today's episode, I talk with Jennifer Gingras, a Couples Therapist who specializes in helping couples navigate infidelity and survive infidelity. I think you'll really enjoy this episode, it's a great conversation on a fascinating topic. And provides great insight into the affair recovery process.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):

Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's therapist in San Francisco. I wanna welcome you to sex love and couple's therapy. We all want to feel loved. That's a universal desire, but sometimes instead of feeling loving our relationships, feel confusing, frustrating, and a little crazy making the purpose of this podcast is to help you clear up some of that confusion so that you and your partner can find ways to make your relationship feel closer, more connected, and more loving. So stay tuned. We've got a lot of great stuff to talk about, and now let's go talk about my three favorite topics, sex love, and couples therapy. So today I wanna welcome my guest, Jennifer Ingris, and I have to tell you I'm really happy to, to be here with Jennifer cuz today we get to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is infidelity. And I know that sounds odd to say infidelity is one of my favorite topics, but as a therapist, it is such a challenging and interesting and rewarding place to work.

Speaker 2 (01:21):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:22):

To help introduce Jennifer, I just wanna tell you a little bit about her. She has a private practice in Florida called CILA therapy. In addition, she's part of the team@affairhealing.com a leading resource for helping couples recover from trauma and of infidelity. Jennifer specializes in, in helping couples navigate relationship issues with a special focus on a fair recovery and premarital counseling. She received her degree in marriage and family counseling at the university of central Florida and her strengths. She feels are her empathy and utilizing a client-centered approach that focuses on acceptance and understanding also interesting in her spare time. She is a runner, a triathlete, um, athlete, and has completed a marathon into half Ironmans. Fantastic, Jennifer, thank you so much and welcome to sex love and couples therapy.

Speaker 2 (02:15):

Well, thank you so much, Jacob, for having me. I also get strangely excited about talking about this topic, cause I feel the same way that I really enjoy helping couples and individual navigate what is really a painful time of their lives, but knowing that I can help them in some way.

Speaker 1 (02:30):

Absolutely. And, and one of the things I think that I find fascinating about working in infidelity is to be a witness to the resilience of couples.

Speaker 2 (02:39):

Absolutely. That, that you can come back from truly devastating period of time and actually form this new relationship that feels so much better in connecting than maybe that was before and the ashes of something so painful.

Speaker 1 (02:55):

So true. And it's interesting in my experience, one of the hardest things for couples to understand at the beginning is that actually the marriage on the other side might be better.

Speaker 2 (03:08):

Yes. It's hard to see it when you're in it <laugh> but our job would be so depressing would be so depressing if that was not the hope that we were holding for them as we guide them to that outcome. If that's what they're desiring.

Speaker 1 (03:21):

Oh yeah. I think I love the way way you said that, that we're holding that hope for them. We're holding that idea for them, but I especially wanted to talk to you today, Jennifer, about the idea of reengaging sexually after an affair and fair and surprisingly, at least surprisingly to me, this isn't a topic that's talked about a lot, but it is a con a real barrier sometimes because a couple there's been an affair and they've made a lot of steps in, in kind of coming back together, but then there's that moment. Well, how do I sleep with him? Or how do I sleep with her if this has happened in the past?

Speaker 2 (04:03):

Yeah. It's a really tricky thing to navigate. Um, I've found that it usually goes one or two directions either. They reengage sexually very quickly. And I think the term for that's hyper bonding or it's nothing, it feels too overwhelming. Um, sex is all about connection and trust and that's been broken in, in the context of an affair. So to reengage in that way feels very vulnerable to the partner who had been cheated on.

Speaker 1 (04:31):

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, I think the way you framed that really makes a lot of sense that it's sex is based on connection and trust. And how can I trust you if you've done this and how can I have sex with you if I feel still feel distant from you after all of this.

Speaker 2 (04:49):

And that's not even mentioning maybe the triggers that happen while engaging in sexual activity, whether that's before play leading up to or actual intercourse, right. It can be really tricky to navigate for both the involved partner and the inter partner. What do we do when that happens? Um, and that can also get in the way of progressing and reconnecting in that physical way.

Speaker 1 (05:11):

Yeah. And, and I'm wondering since you brought it up, what do you do? How do you talk to the couple about cuz that trigger makes so much sense? So you're, you can imagine a couple they're in bed, they're kind of beginning to move towards each other sexually. Maybe it's foreplay, they're hugging or, but there's an intention or maybe they're actually having intercourse and one or both of the people is immensely triggered. You know, how could, why I doing this with you? You did this with that other person. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:46):

Yep. And then it's like, Ugh, hard stop. <laugh> hard. Stop hard stop. Um, so my approach with couples is to try to actually prepare in advance. So don't wait until you're in the moment to try to navigate what to do because the emotions are going to be really high. Um, that trigger can lead to really intense feelings of anxiety and panic. And so I try to walk a couple through when this happens, cuz it probably will at some point, what are, what, how do you navigate that together? So for the injured party to describe this is what helps me feel safe. Here's what I need from you. If I get triggered in this moment and a lot of times it's simply, I need your understanding. Don't get upset with me. If we have to stop for some people, they need a little bit of space and time to kind of calm down.

Speaker 2 (06:39):

Um, and so we have them come. I have them come up with a plan ahead of time of what it would look like when I get triggered. Here's what I need. And that gives the, the involved partner, the opportunity to feel like they can help. Cause oftentimes they, their shame gets triggered. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to fix this. I know I'm the cause of this. So they shut down or they become defensive, which then just does not help lead to further connection. Right? So giving them that confidence of, oh, I can do something in this moment to help them. I know I caused this, but I can also help them in the present moment. It's helpful for them to have kinda like a game plan,

Speaker 1 (07:20):

Right? But also this idea that the, um, involved partner can aid in the healing of the injured partner that they're not just toxic. They're not just causing hurt. They can actually help.

Speaker 2 (07:34):

That is such a significant piece. In my experience of if the couple is doing the work to heal together, we're not talking about individually, we're doing it together. Oftentimes that involve partner feels like, what am I supposed to do? I can't go back in time. I can't undo it. But what I try to encourage them or have them look at is that is true. But you can absolutely help your partner heal from this based on how you respond based on your emotional availability, your ability to be vulnerable and connect and not be defensive or shut down. And that gives them the confidence of saying, oh, this is hard, but I can do something I'm not helpless.

Speaker 1 (08:14):

Right. You know? And on that topic, I just wanna read something that I got actually off of. Um, one of your podcasts, which I just loved the essential necessary change. Is this the involved partner's sincere passion to take responsibility for personal and relationship healing and their desire to work on the change that happens from the inside out. And I gotta tell you, I think that's beautiful and that is just so hard to do. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (08:47):

I did I a hundred percent agree with that statement? Uh, nowhere does it say that that's an easy process? Um, and I, I say that in my sessions, I'm not going to sell you on unicorns and rainbows, but it is hard to do. But if your desire is to do the real work, that's, what's going to be required,

Speaker 1 (09:09):

Right?

Speaker 2 (09:10):

But again, you're not helpless here. You can do that work if you have every intention of being uncomfortable and being vulnerable. And so in the context of re-engaging sexually, imagine you have one involved partner who responds defensively and shuts down and completely walks away from the bedroom, leaving their partner alone in their pain. Again, first is the uninvolved partner that says, I understand, and I'm sorry, and what do you need? Cause I'm here. You want me to hold you. If you need some time to yourself, come find me in 10 minutes and I'll still be here. That's a whole difference in what that feeling can look like based on what the involved partner is doing.

Speaker 1 (09:54):

In my experience, one of the things that's hardest to get over is the involved partner is so resistant, scared, and willing to be an active participant. So what'll the typical scenarios. You know, the injured partner will say, oh, you never want to talk about it. And the involved partner will say, oh no, just, just the other day you brought it up. And I, and I, and I, and I, and I listened. And then the other one says, yeah, but you never bring it up. You never, it's always me. That has to bring it up. Yeah. And getting the involved partner to see it as part of his or her job to bring it up, man, that takes a little work.

Speaker 2 (10:49):

There's a lot of work. <laugh> a little, um, there's so much that gets brought up. And I think if I can boil it down, it's a lot of shame gets kicked up. And that shame is so overwhelming, um, that they do, they get defensive, they shut down or they say, well, I'll talk about it. If you bring it up, like I'm here. I'm just not. And a lot of times what I hear is I don't, if you're in a good place, I don't wanna upset you by bringing it up.

Speaker 1 (11:15):

Exactly

Speaker 2 (11:16):

Valid. Right? Sure. But what I tell my clients is there's not a time that your partner's not thinking about it. You're not gonna remind them and they're gonna be like, oh, I forgot that even happened. And now I'm again. And the other part of that, that I try to encourage is, um, the more you bring it up, the more you initiate conversations, the more you talk about it, the less your partner feels the need to.

Speaker 1 (11:43):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:44):

So true. So the long term goal of the more you do it, the more your partner knows I'm not alone. I don't have to carry this alone. And then the need for the discussion actually decreases. It has the opposite effect of what they think.

Speaker 1 (11:59):

Right?

Speaker 2 (12:01):

And so for them, for them to see it from that perspective of it's hard right now. But the goal of what you're actually working for is decrease, talking about it because your, your partner starts to feel safe with you. They start to see that they can be hurt. They can be angry and that they're not doing it alone.

Speaker 1 (12:18):

Right. You know, it reminds me when you do grief work, people they'll say, well, I don't want to remind them. I don't wanna bring it up. I don't wanna upset him. And just what you, you said was so perfect. And what I say to my clients they're what do you think they forgot that their husband died.

Speaker 2 (12:38):

<laugh> how, the way it works, right?

Speaker 1 (12:41):

Yeah. Can't think that, oh, you know my mind, but dear

Speaker 2 (12:47):

You remind me.

Speaker 1 (12:48):

Yeah. And that while they think that they're protecting the person, what they're really doing, and it's totally understandable is they're protecting themselves because it is so upsetting to bring this up because that person's grief is upsetting for me to hear.

Speaker 2 (13:04):

And it's a reminder of my shame of what I did decision I made and that's right. That's where it gets shut down.

Speaker 1 (13:12):

Right. Right. So if I bring this up, she's gonna be, or he's gonna be unhappy. I'm gonna remember my shame. And then we're just both gonna be sitting in this so much better just to kind of breeze through it.

Speaker 2 (13:26):

Let's just move on. Let's like, let's just move on. Let's just keep going. Yeah. But unfortunately it has the opposite effect, cuz the more you don't deal with it, the more your partner wants to deal with it. And then it stays longer. You're doing this longer by then. Not just learning how to be a little bit uncomfortable and learning how to navigate the shame, trigger and learning how to navigate talking with your spouse about what happened. So that way there can be a true healing

Speaker 1 (13:53):

For me. The path to that is to be able to be in that pain together.

Speaker 2 (13:59):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (14:00):

So that I didn't injure her, I injured us or we are injured.

Speaker 2 (14:09):

You know, that's a really good way of, of putting it.

Speaker 1 (14:12):

We're injured and oh, we both hurt. We're both so injured from this. Can we just be injured together? Cuz it's so much better to be with someone.

Speaker 2 (14:22):

Absolutely. We can get through most things. If we have somebody to help us through it.

Speaker 1 (14:27):

One of the other things I was thinking about in terms of re-engaging sexually and you talked about the trigger mm-hmm

Speaker 2 (14:32):

<affirmative>

Speaker 1 (14:33):

And I think there are a lot of different triggers that may come up. A lot of them are around the shame that the injured party carries. I'm not enough

Speaker 2 (14:44):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 1 (14:45):

He or she had to cheat on me cuz I'm not good enough. I'm not attractive enough. I'm not sexual enough. I'm not, you know, my breasts aren't big enough. My not big enough, whatever. I'm not enough. Yep. And there's this immediate thought of comparison also, would you rather be having sex with him or her? The, the affair partner, you know, am I second choice? Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 1 (15:10):

The challenge is that these are feelings that the injured party doesn't want to share. Cuz they're so painful and they're feelings that the involved partner doesn't want to hear. Cuz they're so painful. You know, it's a really difficult spot. Often in my experience, what happens is people want to know more and more details about the affair, but they don't really want to know the details. It's so much easier to focus on. How many times did you text her? Yep. When did you meet, how many times, what kind of sex did you have? And then if they actually go through and start talking about that, it takes them nowhere. Good.

Speaker 2 (16:00):

No. Then you're just adding more opportunity for more and more triggers cuz every detail, you know, is potential trigger at that point. Um, so you know, we kind of advocate for, with, you know, our work at a fair healing of, you need to know a certain framework. You're thinking of looking at a picture, you need to know the framework of what you're dealing with, who, how long was there sexual contact, who you need to get tested? Um, was there emotions involved? Is this person a threat to our family? Cause you know, there's been some situations, but you don't need to shade in all the colors <laugh> right. Right. And where we really try to caution clients is on the sexual details are really, it's not a, about a protecting. It's not about protecting the affair partner and that relationship it's about protecting you from potential triggers. You really don't need to know every position, how many times where it doesn't really help with the healing. And that's the only thing I usually caution clients on knowing too much of it. Doesn't it just, I've never seen it be helpful

Speaker 1 (17:09):

Because what I really see and the way I try to reframe it is I don't think you really want to know all the details. I think what you're really asking is how did this happen?

Speaker 2 (17:20):

Why did this happen?

Speaker 1 (17:22):

Right. Yes. And they think that if I know the details, well that'll kind of explain it, but it doesn't what they really wanna know is why did this happen? How did this happen? What was going on? It's not where, like you said, what position? Where, how many it's, how could this happen? I didn't think this was gonna happen to us.

Speaker 2 (17:42):

Right. I mean, and I think to even go take that further based on what you were saying earlier, it's why did this happen? I need to understand it. I need to make sense out of it. But the other question, maybe that the injured party is caring is am I enough? What, what does this say about me? Um, that there was this other person that could walk in and you know, disrupt our relationship,

Speaker 1 (18:08):

Right? What does this say about me? And that's, and, and it's so hard cuz on one hand, they're carrying this anger. Mm-hmm <affirmative> over the, over what happened, but they're also carrying that, that question. What does this mean about me? Which is this kind of the opposite of anger? Is this kind of, um, shameful? Am I enough? Kind of a question and it's so hard for them to carry both. I am really angry at you for what, what you did and do you want me

Speaker 2 (18:37):

Yeah. And anger usually wins out. Cause that feels more powerful and I control right. But it's helping to kind of get down to what the core is of what, what they're really asking and what they're really needing their partner to answer for them. But I also want to say that an affair is never about the injured party. There was always something going on within the involved partner and doesn't mean there wasn't stuff going on in their marriage cuz there could have absolutely then, but it's never a sign of the worth of the injured partner. They are worthy period. Whether your partner had an affair or not, they're worthy. So I always like to that be my framework when I'm working with the injured partner of, we can talk through why this happened. We can look at what was happening in a relationship we can look at, um, what were the individual things that contributed to this? What were the circumstantial things that contributed to this? What are the personality pieces that contributed to this, but it was never about your worth.

Speaker 1 (19:35):

Oh, that's such a nice way of framing it. And uh, and I'm totally gonna steal that from you.

Speaker 2 (19:40):

Absolutely take it. If you can give that to people and they believe it. Cause I will, I will die on that hill. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (19:47):

Right. No, no, because that's that's so that's so true. And that's so hard for people to get because they feel that it's about them.

Speaker 2 (19:58):

Yeah. I mean it's an attachment wound and if they already have maybe some self-worth or self-esteem issues from childhood or even just growing up, you're just retriggering already. But a lot of people deal with any anyway, outside of an affair situation. So that's where I just wanna, I just offer that over and I tell my clients, I'm gonna say it until you're tired of me hearing it. It was never about your word ever. Even if you were a terrible life or a terrible husband, there are things you can improve, but it was never about your, and so that is the basis, which we need to have an understanding to move forward with looking at all the other pieces.

Speaker 1 (20:34):

Yeah, no I, so with you and similarly kind of culturally, and I think this is somewhat to, to some degree misogynistic, the culturally we tend to frame adultery about, well, he wasn't getting enough at home. Okay. That's that's the frame and it's almost always about the woman mm-hmm <affirmative> it blames her and in my experience, it is never about the sex at home.

Speaker 2 (21:08):

Agreed.

Speaker 1 (21:08):

It's just not,

Speaker 2 (21:09):

It's not, it's not about the sex even. I don't care if they're having sex 27 times a day with the affair partner. It's not about the sex,

Speaker 1 (21:15):

Right?

Speaker 2 (21:17):

Yeah. Agreed.

Speaker 1 (21:18):

But that's so hard to get people to believe it gives kind of a, a way for the involved partner to blame.

Speaker 2 (21:27):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (21:29):

And for the, um, injured partner to feel shame mm-hmm <affirmative> which to explain it. Uh, well I wasn't good enough in bed. That's so much easier sometimes than the more complex and more vulnerable feelings that are actually happening that were making the couple feel distant.

Speaker 2 (21:49):

Yeah. It's a great way of putting it because it'd be so much easier if it was just about the sex.

Speaker 1 (21:55):

Right.

Speaker 2 (21:55):

We'll just have more sex problem solved.

Speaker 1 (21:58):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:59):

It's way more complex than that. Right. And it was never as much as it wasn't about the injured party. It's also not about the affair partner,

Speaker 1 (22:09):

Right? Yeah. It's not,

Speaker 2 (22:11):

There's something that was going on

Speaker 1 (22:15):

In the marriage,

Speaker 2 (22:15):

In the marriage, in the person who had the affair that they were not dealing with appropriately that caused them to look outside the marriage. Right. Right. And so it's much easier to blame the wife or the husband. It's much easier to blame the affair partner. It's much easier to blame anything and everything else, but myself.

Speaker 1 (22:38):

Right. So true. And I think that that's, that's really hard for people to get, you know? Um, but it's so hard to kind of work out that this was a more complex issue and that the way I kind of framed it is that there were hard conversations in the marriage before the affair that we weren't able to have.

Speaker 2 (23:06):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (23:08):

You know that there have been difficult conversations about how we feel about each other or how we feel about ourselves or how the marriage is going or anything, our, our careers or whatever, but because of who we have been to each other, we haven't really been able to talk about those. Yes. I've never seen an affair couple, a couple. Who've had an affair in which they have been doing a good job at having difficult conversations.

Speaker 2 (23:41):

Agreed, agreed. And

Speaker 1 (23:43):

The road forward is learning how to have difficult conversations

Speaker 2 (23:49):

In the context of dealing with fair healing and trauma. And, but yes, that is absolutely what is required for that true healing to take place is you have to learn how to be uncomfortable and how to have hard conversations. Right. Because unfortunately life might throw something else your way, 10 years from now that disrupts, maybe it's something completely outside the marriage, but disrupts the relationship. And if you don't learn how to have those hard conversations, well, what happens then?

Speaker 1 (24:17):

Right. Right. That's so true. Yeah. Cuz things happen. I mean, somebody dies, somebody loses a job, you have to move, you have a kid who's in trouble, a

Speaker 2 (24:28):

Pandemic,

Speaker 1 (24:29):

A pandemic, oh God,

Speaker 2 (24:30):

<laugh>

Speaker 1 (24:32):

Not a pandemic place, but yeah. It, and how do we do we feel that we know how to deal with these things that we can deal with these things. And that's, that's a hard thing to learn, but I was one of the other podcasts you, you did, which I found really interesting was on repeat affairs. Which boy talk about a challenge. You know, when you have repeat affairs, it's really difficult. Yeah. To build and rebuild trust, but I've seen people do that. Seen both parties change, but it really requires a willingness to, as you said, be uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (25:16):

Absolutely. You're not gonna get too true healing without it. You just there's no, there's no detour.

Speaker 1 (25:23):

Right. There's no detour, but you know, we all want the detour. We all want the shortcut. We want

Speaker 2 (25:28):

The <laugh> I don't wanna be uncomfortable either what I for a living, but I still, I mean, you know,

Speaker 1 (25:36):

I'm happy to sit with your discomfort. Sure.

Speaker 2 (25:38):

Absolutely. But not mine. I mean, my marriage is perfect. Thank you very much. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (25:44):

I was wondering, you know, I was saying one of the things that drew me to this kind of working infidelity, and I wonder since it's clearly such a big part of your practice, was there, what kind of ma what is it that draws you or calls to you about this kind of work?

Speaker 2 (26:00):

So I have a personal history with it, as you know, that's probably not too surprising. Um, and I'm pretty open with that in my story that my husband did have an affair, uh, going on 12 years now. And so navigating that and working through that, I also have family history of infidelity, um, on my father's side. And so, um, I think going through that, seeing the damage it did as a child, seeing what it did in my own life, you know, I, I always said when I was in school, I would never be a counselor <laugh> God has a funny way of saying, okay. Um, and I think by helping others navigate the same hard thing that I went through, it gives my story a purpose. It means that what I went through has meaning, and I didn't go through it for nothing. And I find that that is very fulfilling for me as a practitioner and on a personal level that it wasn't for any, it wasn't for nothing. Like I have a story that can help other people and I can use both my personal story, but also what I've learned as a therapist and as a counselor of what works to help individual individuals and couples navigate a really, really painful time.

Speaker 1 (27:17):

Uh, well, I really want to thank you for sharing that, cuz I didn't know that, that, that you had that story. Um, and I really wanna assure you that I didn't know that. So I wasn't, this wasn't like a little for that.

Speaker 2 (27:31):

It's okay. If I wasn't comfortable sharing, I would've told you that, so,

Speaker 1 (27:38):

And feel free to push back and we can edit it out if you want. But now you're 12 years after the affair, what's it like for you to talk about it?

Speaker 2 (27:50):

Most of the time it's like telling somebody else's story. Mm. I remember what happened and I can remember growing through it, but there's, we are definitely not the same people. We're not the same couple we were. And so there's this space between the emotion of what I felt then and how it impacts me now. Um, now sometimes there are people whose stories are maybe similar to mine and that can be a little bit of a <affirmative>, but I've learned how to navigate that. And so 99% of the time, it's more about using it to help others, as opposed to me going back to a place that was painful for me. So there is kind of a separation. Now when I talk about it, it feels almost like somebody else's story, cuz I don't feel like we're the same people.

Speaker 1 (28:36):

And so talking about it no longer triggers you, I guess the way it, it

Speaker 2 (28:41):

I'm sure. Yeah. I can talk about it all day long and it's I can go home and be just fine and not, not like I'm pretending to be fine, but generally I'm fine.

Speaker 1 (28:49):

That's great. Yeah. That's amazing. You know, and I was wondering one of the last topics I wanted to talk to you about, which is one that I, I find so fascinating and difficult is the question of forgiveness. I did a podcast a few weeks ago with a guy wrote just one of the Bibles on forgiveness. And we were talking about how difficult the idea forgiveness is. And I think one of the issues is that people confuse forgiveness for thinking it's all right, right. That if I forgive you, it means that what you did was okay or that if I forgive you, it means that I forget about it. Um, or if I forgive you, it means I can't bring it up again. Right. I'm wondering how you frame in your mind, how forgiveness works for clients when you talk to them about what, how do you help them understand what forgiveness means?

Speaker 2 (29:47):

So I like to frame it from first. I like to talk about the difference between forgiveness and trust because forgiveness does not require anything of your partner. Trust requires something of your partner. Mm it's. The right behavior over a consistent period of time. Whereas forgiveness is really not for them though. They benefit from it. It's really for yourself to let go of anger, to let go of the pain from impacting your life for moving forward. Right. So I like to kind of differentiate when I'm asking for, when I'm talking to you about forgiveness, I'm not talking about trust two different things. And then I also like to remind, yeah,

Speaker 1 (30:28):

Well, I'm sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you. Yeah. For a second Jennifer. Cause that was a really, really important statement you made there. And I think one in which I'm, I'm gonna admit that sometimes I get a little confused and I may not be clear enough with my clients. That there's a big difference between trust yes and forgiveness. I may forgive you, but that doesn't mean necessarily that I trust you.

Speaker 2 (30:49):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (30:51):

Ah, that's so big.

Speaker 2 (30:52):

You can have forgiveness without trust. Yeah. You might not have a relationship. Right. But you can have forgiveness without trust. I don't know that you can necessarily have trust without forgiveness though. That is debatable. I don't know yet. But yeah. I don't know. That might be a further thought process I have to think about, but it's not the same trust requires something of your partner. Trust is earned over time, whereas forgiveness is given and it's really more for yourself than it is for anybody else.

Speaker 1 (31:22):

Yeah. And I think that's a really hard idea to communicate or to accept that I'm forgiving her for my benefit.

Speaker 2 (31:30):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (31:32):

That this forgiveness is about me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> not about her or him. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:37):

Yes. And then now they benefit from it. Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1 (31:40):

Right.

Speaker 2 (31:41):

Especially in the context of a healed relationship, but I also let them know and validate first forgiveness is a process. You're not gonna wake up one day and be like, oh, forgiven them. Um, you're never going to forget short of a brain injury. You cannot erase the memory. So forgiveness doesn't mean that we're forgetting nor does it mean, like you said before, it doesn't mean that I'm saying it's okay. It will never be okay what happened period. But I can still forgive the person, the actions that they did in order for me to move on my healing. Because if not, if I hold on to the anger and the pain and the bitterness, I'm the one that suffers. Even if I'm not married anymore, they can go on and have a whole life that they don't care if I forgive them or not. I'm the one who's still suffering. Cause that anger is going to get in the way of other relationships or truly moving on in a healthy way.

Speaker 1 (32:37):

You know, I, I have to admit that this was a difficult concept for me to get as well. Um, cuz you know, sometimes you'll see a news article on and somebody, somebody did a terrible thing to somebody's family and that family then forgives them. And I would think to myself, how the hell does that work? Yeah, I don't get it. And it was only through doing this work with in infidelity that I started to understand that concept, that I'm forgi. My forgiveness is about me and for me and it doesn't mean that I have forgotten or that it's okay or that I'm now love them or anything like that. Correct. But I've forgiven them so that I can move on

Speaker 2 (33:25):

Perfectly said yes. Yeah

Speaker 1 (33:28):

Boy, that's a heavy lift sometimes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:31):

And I won't pretend that's easy either. Right? Cause we don't, I mean you're justified in your anger and your hurt and all of that, but it also, you didn't choose this happening to you, but you choose how you are going to move on from it. And so if you want to move on in a way that's, that's not impacting your life forever. It takes time. So again, this is not a rushed thing then. And, and I also, for the people who don't like forgiveness, cause maybe it sounds too religious for them or there's a con like a religious, spiritual connotation. I use the word acceptance. Right? Cause I've accepted that this has happened. I didn't choose it. It's not my fault, but it's happened. And now I'm going to choose how I moved forward with accepting that reality.

Speaker 1 (34:14):

And you can accept and you can forgive and you can still be deeply unhappy and angry. Yes. And hurt.

Speaker 2 (34:22):

It does not negate what happened. It does not mean you forget it never, ever, ever means. You're saying it was okay.

Speaker 1 (34:29):

And then last thing I want to talk about is something that we brought up earlier, which is this idea that what I call usually marriage 2.0, the marriage after the affair can actually be better than the marriage. 1.0 mm-hmm <affirmative>, which like I said, you know, is really hard to convince anybody that, to believe that early on, but I've seen it happen so many times that the second marriage really doesn't look the same as the, the, the one beforehand they've they've had to change. Mm-hmm <affirmative> And I'm just wondering what your, how you kind of think about that or, or what you've seen or what your thoughts are about this idea that the second, the, the marriage actually improves following the affair.

Speaker 2 (35:18):

Yeah. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier in regards to learning how to be uncomfortable and have hard conversations is like you said, I've never seen a couple who, where there's been an infidelity where they had, they had that ability. Right. And so, and a lot of times in the context where we're not having hard conversations and maybe one person's trying to get that and the other person's resistant and there's that push and pull somebody's needs are not being met. Yeah. There's a sense of disconnect somewhere stemming from something that's not really being addressed fully. And so an affair like an emotional near death experience where it causes you to reevaluate what's important, what your needs are in, in a relationship. And so when both partners are giving attention to not only the healing, but what does it mean to fix some of the things?

Speaker 2 (36:13):

Let me, let me clarify. We have to feel some infidelity first, before we can address the things that were going on in the marriage. People try to get it backwards. It doesn't work. So once you've moved through kind of starting to stitch together that wound and it's starting to heal, you can then address those areas of the marriage that maybe weren't functioning very well to begin with. And so then there's healing for that. And then a new kind of relationship develops where we can do hard things together. We can have hard conversations and then there's this confidence of we can get through anything. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because we've already been through one of the worst things somebody can go through and we navigated and it was painful and we struggled and there was ups and downs, but we did it together. And so I think that's where it all ties in is giving that hope for that relationship looks different because you have two people willing to beat each other's needs, being willing to ask for that. Being willing to have hard conversations in a way that probably wasn't existing before the affair happened or the affair

Speaker 1 (37:11):

That's so good. Yeah. No, I think that's exactly right. And I love the way you kind of map that out to you. That first you have to go through the affair process, then, then we can look at the marriage and then people kind of evolve. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:23):

Yes. Yeah. We can't, we can't do it the other way around doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (37:26):

We can't do it the other way. No. Cause you can't, you can't reestablish that trust until you work through that. Correct? That pain. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:33):

Correct. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:34):

One last thing I'd like to do. Cause this has been such an interesting discussion. We've gone over so many different kind of topics, which have all been fascinating, but the original, uh, topic about re-engaging sexually just in case somebody's, that's really what they're kind of struggling with is listening. I just wanna go back to that briefly and summarize some of the points that you brought up, which were so important, which is that, yeah, this is hard. That's a difficult moment. And that it's very likely that at least the beginning that there'll be some triggers and it'll be difficult. And that one of the things that you do is you kind of set up a game plan beforehand. Mm-hmm <affirmative> about how to deal with these triggers and that these triggers really bring up a lot of shame in both partners and, and makes it very difficult for them to connect Roundup. But that this actually is an opportunity, especially for the affair partner to find, to have a purpose, have a function in helping the other, the, the injured partner partner heal or work through that, that shame by just being there for them.

Speaker 2 (38:47):

Absolutely. It's it seems like a small thing that has larger implications is your ability to sit with me in my pain, knowing that you caused it means that I can begin to rebuild trust with you because if you disappear every time I'm hurting or I'm triggered, it's hard to rebuild trust or emotional safety around that. And that's where the involved partner, they have power. They have the ability to make this better based on how they respond. And if you don't know how to respond, go to your partner and ask them what would be helpful, right? What can I do initiate that conversation? Like we talked about, bring up that conversation and say, I wanna be proactive here. This may be a struggle. And if it's not great, but if it is, how do we navigate that together? Yeah. What do you need from me?

Speaker 1 (39:34):

What do you need from me? And that this may go on for a while. Yes. Yes. It may take a while before someone's willing to really go all the way from kissing to actual intercourse. Yep. That may take a while.

Speaker 2 (39:50):

So patience, patience with the process on both parties would be really, really important because they may be on different pacings in this healing process. So a more patient, you could be with each other and not getting defensive or trying to push your pace. So for the involved partner, not to push too much, if before the injured partner is ready, also goes a long way.

Speaker 1 (40:14):

Okay. Gotta recognize that for the involved partner, he or she wants to push this. Yes. Because if, if we can start having sex with all, then we're making progress. He may not, he must not hate me so much. So they really wanna have reengage sexually. Cause that's a way

Speaker 2 (40:30):

It's fun. Yes. Right,

Speaker 1 (40:32):

Right, right. You know, so, oh, maybe we're there's light at the end of the tunnel. Yep. No, we gotta go slow.

Speaker 2 (40:38):

Yes. You go partners pace

Speaker 1 (40:41):

Right at the end partner space. That's perfect. Well, Jennifer, I really want to thank you. This has been such an interesting and, and I can't believe 45 minutes went by that. I know that

Speaker 2 (40:51):

Really fast. <laugh>.

Speaker 1 (40:53):

That was such a great conversation. I wanna thank you for coming and joining us. I just wish you well in your, in your life and in your practice. Thank you so much for having so much and thank you for coming and let me know if there's anything I can ever do to help you. I appreciate

Speaker 2 (41:07):

It. Thank you so much, Jacob.

Speaker 1 (41:09):

All right. Take care.

Speaker 2 (41:10):

Bye

Speaker 1 (41:11):

Bye. Well, that's our episode for today. I hope we found it interesting and useful, but most of all, I'd like a thank you for listening. If you have a minute, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating. And I hope to see you again soon on another episode of sex, love and couples therapy.